I am sure a truly creative person can come up with the symbolism of the North Korean feeling up a dolled up cowgirl while a drum in the back of a truck rolls by on a race track.

… lets abandon the techie talk as it’s too confusing for an honest read now anyway … Kevin … got any more cowgirls?

For the record two parting notes:

1) The use of condescending flippant phrases like

“the Wonka-esque RCA idea factory”

and

“the guys that make my universal remote. “

Indicates to me that you have very little, if any, respect for companies other than the one(s) you decide to get behind so your opinions are a bit tainted.

If that were it I’d accept your argument as passionate, if not misguided, attempts to continually refuse my efforts to say “You are free to enjoy your player, but I’ll stick with mine”

But it didn’t stop there.

2) The use of condescending flippant phrases like

“Justice Meade”

and

“I wanted to take on the Supreme Supreme Court”

Indicates to me that you have very little, if any, respect for the persons with which you are trying to have a supposedly civil debate.

My posts, although disagreeing with you, were written trying to maintain a certain amount of respect for your person.

I used phrases like:

“Well said… but…”

“I agree that Apple’s strongest feature is … ”

“I concede that you may …”

“Different strokes for different folks….”

All meant to let us agree to disagree.

Your posts were:

“You are very obsessed … ”

“Justice Meade Vs business models”

“Justice Meade vs himself”

“Seriously when I saw that I Laughed out loud”

And the whole nonsense started when you felt the need to argue the value I found on a $69 dollar memory stick card.

If you want to have a civil debate try to remember the civil part next time.

“Everything kinda blurred after that into a muddy blend of cow girls”,

and also a close runner up quote with “It isn’t often I get to use cargo pants and pug dogs”. Congatulations. You’ll be the first addition without a last name as I know you only as “Steve”.

Also we’re very likely going to break the 50 comment mark on this post!

Doug Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:10 am

”I don’t understand why you continue to try and debunk me.”

At first it was fun ribbing. (It isn’t often I get to use cargo pants and pug dogs in the same post.)

Everything kinda blurred after that into a muddy blend of cow girls, Hailing Purdue, thoughtfully used all caps, and the Koreans. In the end I wanted to take on the Supreme Supreme Court despite warnings and somehow lost to the guys that make my universal remote.

To David I look forward to the ChicagoVideobloggers presentation on the 19th.

Regarding the links you just added to your post.

The Lyra link you posted is to a product that was introduced YEARS ago.

Of course it’s marked down. (by the way we have enjoyed a nice percentage market share in this category thanks to that piece so unless you’re saying that Apple is the only one who should make money I fail to see how this is at all relevant)

Besides are we changing the topic now to the Lyra?!?! Good Grief.

Anyway…

Creative has been in trouble for many reasons.

They bought a lot of share with the push they made with the Zen Micro but it was at a huge loss.

Rio – Out of business.

Many others will follow.

I believe your original point was that these over seas manufactures were upset that they couldn’t produce the product as cheaply as apple.

While it’s true that Apple has a very good cost negotiation position given the volume of sales they do if RCA COULD produce the product then I think it’s safe to say that other companies could as well.

Whatever their “spin” is there are MANY reasons why these other companies are in trouble.

And the stories on how some of them are staying in business regardless of it are just as interesting.

If you really want the scoop maybe I can sneak you into one of our meetings. Then if you aren’t convinced you can throw all these links at our product development team, sourcing team, and finance guys because clearly our being in the business isn’t as insightful as your web surfing.

I’m done after this.

But what the hell Dave’s post count is getting good…

You spent a lot time quoting me just to say that I was correct that I hadn’t said “Apple shouldn’t make money”.

And then after all of that you agreed that the Sony is a value since it’s sold under cost.

(And by they way.. that’s the only reason I mentioned components. I was NOT trying to imply that Apple should sell below their cost.)

But then you get a weird again.

The Value of the PSP does not decrease when you buy games.

That’s ridiculous.

It’s a completely different purchase.

It’s CONTENT.

That’s like saying the value of the iPOD goes down when you buy music.

Or that the value a DVD player goes down every time you go to blockbuster.

Further….

Apple may make 20-30% on the player but you can’t realistically argue they make nothing from “the other items”.

It’s true that iPod accessories are HUGE sellers … but largely NOT made by apple.

Apple does however get licensing from all the manufactures out there making iPod accessories.

That’s almost 100% pure profit for apple.

And like licensing the costs associated with selling content (once it’s been produced) is very low so there’s money in that as well.

Lastly…

Truth be told Steve, I’m not attacking Apple’s business model at all.

They SHOULD hype their product.

They SHOULD charge whatever the market will let them get away with.

If anything I’m attacking the market for allowing it.

I’ve conceded in past posts that Apple is a cool product, that it’s true to it’s purpose, and that if it’s for the core consumer it’s probably a good buy.

I don’t understand why you continue to try and debunk me.

It looks more and more like you just can’t stand the fact that I’ve chosen something else.

Doug

Tue Nov 1st 2005, 1:13pm

“I have no problem with the iPod … it’s a cool product. But it’s price point is at least 35% hype. (or if you’re kind you can say you’re paying 35% more for “style”)

Meanwhile the Sony PSP is (again in my opinion) a value… From what we can tell about the PSP is that Sony loses money on each unit sold. Not unreasonable considering the high margin dollars they make on games … and probably movies)”

Wed Nov 2nd 2005, 7:06pm

“Still…there’s no COMPONENT reason for it to cost so much.

The trans flash drives they are using in the nano sized product is indeed more expensive than the micro hard drives they were using… but still not THAT much more.*”

Thu Nov 3rd 2005, 2:29pm

“I have NEVER said apple shouldn’t make money. NEVER.”

No, you said Sony is a better value because they sell the player at a loss. Which is true. Apple makes profits from the player (20-30%) and makes little to no profit on the other items. You have value in the PSP but that is not the whole story what good is a game player with out games/movies/memory**? Ah so the value starts to diminish when you start buying those games. To steal you line about the cost of the games and movies, “there is no COMPONENT reason for it to cost sooooooooooo much” (as a note I added the extra “o”s to “so”).

It is a common attack on Apple’s business model that they over hype and then over charge (That is what I was getting at with the COMPONENT conversation). This was very true in the 90’s but over the last few years they have given into market pressure and have changed their model to be a little more consistent with what the market place is. The first 3 gens of iPod had a box full of goodies and cost a hell of a lot. Now the box (and the price) is smaller and those other goodies are available ala carte. Since you are in the CE industry I am sure you know this.

*I forgot to mention before that they also added a very nice color screen when they switched to flash for HD

**Your value is secure if you use it only for being online.

If you’re implying Steve is right just say so.

But I don’t see this evidence you are eluding to.

This is coming from 10 years of experience, you probably don’t want to argue with a Meade….it just isn’t wise, for your sanity. You could have the entire supreme court on your side, and every ounce of evidence pointing to your favor, and you’d still lose in the long run. Just agree to disagree and let it go. Trust me.

K

MP3 players were (at least until they started having 20GB+ drives) were alot like CD players in that the user chose which songs/play lists they were taking with them that day. They’d sync up those files (rather than grab those CDs) and go.

I think this is what Doug is talking about – a portable MP3 player has historically been a player not an archival device. The logic isn’t “If you have a large collection then you should understand why you don’t need a large collection” but rather “If you are savvy enough to manage a huge library, you’re probably savvy enough to work with play lists well enough that you don’t need that entire library on the portable device.”

However, as Steve points out, things have changed. These devices do come with huge capacity now. Mine has 60GB even. So it is now possible to reasonably consider that your MP3 device will have all your songs on it, all the time.

This may be a relatively new thing in the world of MP3 players … but its been realized for long enough now that I think people can fairly consider that feature a selling point. One the PSP doesn’t have.

However it’s not a feature that some consumers consider to be required (or even wise). And the PSP is in fact selling its media player as a 2ndary feature (at least right now).

So we’re back to ‘they’re just two different things’.

For some people MP3 players don’t need to have all their songs or videos on it .. they’ll sync up what they want for that week and change it out as needed. And for people who view their players in this regard the PSP is more than able to meet the need of portable mp3/video player … and it will be one that can to alot more things … like UMD movies, kick ass games, Wi-Fi / web browsing … the works.

Apple’s iPod will remain the easier-to-use/greater-capacity player.

PSP will remain the tons-of-feature/carry-select-media-at-a-time device.

Both devices kick ass … in their own way.

It basically comes down to “Do I want lots of really cool features” or “Do I want simplicity and capacity”

… at least in my humble opinion.

(holy crap we’ve passed the 30 comments mark!)